New York State Senate

“ A. Yes; Al Adams has from Fourteenth street up on the west side mostly; nobody else can go in there, it is impossible; and down below that Hogan, and Murray and Meyers, and all the rest of them have them on the west side.
By Mr. Goff: Q. By what means do those backers divide up the city between them; for instance, Al Adams has the territory from Fourteenth Street to Harlem river; how can he have that territory for himself? A. I don't know; if you wanted to do the same thing, I suppose, and went over there and fixed the captain not to let any other place run, he would not let anyone else there. ”

“ Q. Do you know of any policy players who have in New York? A. Lots of them — not players, no, not players.
Q. The writers? A. Yes; the writers; they never arrest the players.
Q. Why is it the writers were arrested if protection had been paid in the manner you have descibed? A. It is very seldom they are arrested by the wardman or the policeman, hardly ever; it is like this: Now if there is anything like the Parkhurst crusade, or anything like that coming around, or the newspapers having a big shout, the wardman will say look out for the newspaper men and Central men ”

“ Q. Six hundred policy shops running to-day in the city of New York; and do you say, from your knowledge of the policy business, would it be possible for those policy shops to run and be in operation without the knowledge of the police? A. No, sir; it would not; of course not; they could not; it would be impossible.
By Senator Bradley: Q. How long do you suppose a policy shop could run in the precinct without the detective or captain knowing knowing it? A. He would not run 12 hours. ”

“ Q. The moneys you receive, do you pay the winnings out of the money, or do you send the moneys to headquarters? A. Well, you pay if you win, and I have a runner; if I am a man who has a runner and make a book up town, I have a man take the book; if my receipts of this morning are $60, of course, naturally I would keep that money until the winning numbers came in, and if I was hit I would pay it ”

“ A. They did that sometimes, and discharged them; it is not necessary in most of the courts to arrest him; you may arrest a man and take all the testimony you want, and he is discharged.
Q. Discharged by the police magistrate? A. Yes, sir; it don't matter how much evidence you have got, there is hundreds of cases dismissed, and won't allow you to show the evidence.
Q. How is it; do the backers or policy writers have an understanding that they will not be held in a police court in case of arrest? A. If you are held, that is the last of it; if you are held in bail, you never hear of it again. ”

“ Q. A middleman? A. Yes, sir; he opens books; he fits up a place, and opens a book, and gets a man to back it and gets so much of the earnings.
Q. You spoke of children going into these places; have there ever been any arrests made so far as your knowledge goes of children, or of policy players, for letting children into those places for playing policy? A. So far as my knowledge goes about four years ago, there was two Gerry men came around to this man Dore, and they were going to arrest him for giving a slip to a little boy — my little brother-in-law. ”

“ I do not understand them, and they do not, and only one man knows them, E. J. Conlon, in Jersey City, is the man.
Q. What is his right name? A. That is not his right name; nobody knows; I do not know that he does himself.
Q. Is he a distinguished man in the society? A. He is the secret man; there are three other secret men; they sell these drawings to the backers in New York, and these three men control the business only; this Conlon does all of their private confidential work ”

“ A. Well, the general custom is after your book runs a few days you usually can send the money down by the runner every morning; the runner comes up to get your book to be sent down to headquarters because you have got so much money there; and if there are a good many people, you may have an over-hit. ”

“ Q. Is it a recognized system and rule among the policy dealers in this city to go to the police and arrange for the paying of the police before it can be opened? A. Certainly.
Q. Is there a specific sum agreed upon for each place? A. Well, I suppose some districts, they may pay more; now up in the Twenty-first precinct, Captain Marten's precinct, there is a middle-man there named Richard Dore. and when this Parkhurst crusade was around last winter, if you remember, which they closed up so many places, or in the spring or winter, the captain told him to close: he could not open ”

“ Q. We would like to have any personal knowledge you have rather than statements of general rumor? A. Do you remember reading in the paper a couple of months ago, and in the Evening World, when Captain Slevin said — he made the report to one of the police commissioners — that somebody had sent him a letter, signed “Mother,” complaining that there was a policy shop at 102, 107 and 200 South street, and 203 Front street; in answer to the commissioners, he sent his officers there in citizens' clothes, and visited there himself, and he found no policy shops running ”

“ Parker, he has to buck against the whole lot of them; Al Adams, Billy Meyer, and Shipsey, and Morton, and all those fellows work together.
Q. On a sort of combine? A. Yes; Jake Shipsey takes all the “put-off play” that these backers are afraid to back; a gig, for $1,000 for one of these backers, he may be afraid to take it, and he puts it on for Jake Shipsey; Shipsey takes most of the “put-off play;” that is, the big play; he has got plenty of money, Jake has.
Q. What class of people mostly indulge in this policy business? A. It differs; sometimes the prosperous people ”

“ A. That depends upon the people, you know; go down around Eldridge and Stanton streets, they play penny and two-cent gigs; you go up town and they play from 15 to 25-cents, and sometimes $1, and you go to Little Italy, and they play all sorts; and you come down where the brokers play, they put down $100 or $50, and they play according to their means; just the same as any other men do in their gambling. ”

“ A. Whenever there is anything happens to a policeman everybody plays a police gig — any policeman is discharged or drunk, somebody goes in and plays a police gig.
Q. You mean to say if a policeman ran up against the Broadway cable car and got the worst of the collision, you mean to say the people would run in and play the police gig? A. They would take the police gig, take the number of the car and run the combination.
Q. Well, does the play of policy, the selecting of numbers, largely depends upon such accidental circumstances as the one I have mentioned? A. Yes ”

“ Q. Is there an understanding among the policy writers that they are pretty well looked after in the police court? A. It is understood that the policy writers — that the backers will bear all expenses, and will do all they can to keep them out of trouble ”

“ Q. In these poor districts? A. They are best districts; the very best.
Q. Better than the districts occupied by the well-to-do people? A. Yes; they do not play such big amounts, but the quantity more than covers that.
Q. The districts occupied by the poorer class of people are the best districts? A. Yes. and have the most policy shops.
Q. Well, I asked you about whether the policy writer had any arrangement with the backer as to his proportionate share of the payment of the police? ”

“ Q. Now, I see in the Fifth precinct, the one that Captain Dougherty commanded —
By Chairman Lexow: Q. I would like to understand this a little better, Mr. Goff; how is it if you were paying protection, and had a large amount of money paid for protection each month, how was it you permitted these wardmen to chase you from one room to another, and one house to another? A. Of course you know the captain has got to protect himself, and when a complaint goes into Superintendent Byrnes and the police commissioners it has certainly got to be investigated ”

“ Q. Now, could you tell us how many of those backers are in the city of New York? A. I can name them off for you.
Q. Name them, if you can? A. Al Adams, Jake Shipsey —
Q. Why do you put Al Adams first? A. Al has the most number of sheets, and he is the biggest man, and has the most money, and has the biggest pile.
Q. He is called the king of the policy dealers, isn't he? A. Yes; and there is Jake Shipsey; he is another big man; Cornelius P. Parker, and Billy Meyers, and Ed. ”

“ A. Yes; they come right to you, and if news is coming to the captain, to see how you are taking care of your business, he will put an officer we do not know, in civilian's clothes, and send him around, and say if that officer can get him on that line a Parkhurst man can, and a newspaper man can, and if that man can get in anybody can.
Q. He sends him around to test you? A. If he can get in on you he will arrest you.
Q. I see that number 35 has been made use of? A. Haven't you a policy slip? ”

“ Q. Now, let us understand, when this telegraph message is received in Jersey City from Kentucky, then the cipher is transcribed, and the numbers given out by this Conlon, is that it? A. Yes, sir; and sent over the telephone to all the main backers; that is, over the telephone to Jersey City, and they send it all over the telephone to the policy shops in the city; and the policy shop have prints and stamps, and they print it; that is not official; if you are hit you are not satisfied to pay off on that ”

“ Q. They would go as low as two cents? A. Oh, a penny; come in and beg you to trust a penny.
Q. Are there not many women who play? A. Lots of them, and come in with children on their arms, and babies on their arms. ”

“ Q. That is a saddle; now, a gig is a combination of three numbers; how does that pay? A. A hundred to one if you play it in both lotteries; that is, if it comes out on either side it pays, and that gives you $1 for a cent.
Q. If it don't come out? A. You gets nothing for your money.
Q. Does it ever come out? A. Yes; they win.
By Senator Pound: Q. Is this the order here (indicating slip) ; “46-44-75” of the winners? A. Yes sir; those are 12 numbers that win ”

“ A. Captain O'Connor's precinct; there has been lots of them closed since the Lexow committee commenced to sit the last time.
Q. Eighteen places in Captain O'Connor's precinct? A. That is about right.
Q. And the backers there are given as Adams and Shipsey; they are the two principal backers in that precinct? A. Yes, sir.
Q. I find in the Fourth precinct, Captain Slevin, there are 23? A. That is a good neighborhood; Slevin is a very good man for the policy business.
Q. He is a good man for the policy business? A. Yes; one of the best. ”

“ Q. No, in the First precinct? A. In the First precinct, I think, there is about 20; there is now; there were more than that, but there is some of them closed; there was about 40 there, but they closed half of them.
Q. Seventeen places returned in the First precinct? A. Yes; 17 places.
Q. You have got the names of the backers of each policy place? A. Very nearly all of them.
Q. I find the names here of the backers in the First precinct are Gammon, Murray, De Witt, Shipsey, Brown, Parker, were the names of the backers? A. Yes, sir ”