“ What did he tell you?
11 Q. What did he tell you about the work being done in Baku?
12 A. He said the office over there helping you to escape to
13 Chechnya, and he say some people over there, they do that for
14 money. ”

“ Would you just briefly explain to the jury
10 who Ibn al Tamiyeh is?
11 A. He's a scholar for Islamic history 1700 or 1800 years ago.
12 Q. Can you tell us now what Abu Hajer al Iraqi said about Ibn
13 al Tamiyeh?
14 A. He said that our time now is similar like in that time,
15 and he say Ibn al Tamiyeh, when a tartar come to Arabic war,
16 Arabic countries that time, he say some Muslims, they help
17 them. And he says Ibn al Tamiyeh, he make a fatwah. He said
18 anybody around the tartar, he buy something from them and he
19 sell them something, you should kill him. ”

“ When you were a
11 member of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, did the members of al Qaeda
12 in Afghanistan all receive the same amount of money or did the
13 salaries vary?
14 A. No, there's a difference. Some people, they got more.
15 Some people, they got a little.
16 Q. And that was in Afghanistan?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you got to the Sudan, were the salaries of al Qaeda
19 members the same for everyone or did they vary?
20 A. No, it's different.
21 Q. And did you ever have a conversation with anyone about the
22 different salaries for al Qaeda members in the Sudan? ”

“ Can
166
1 you tell the jury who you raised money from and what the money
2 was for?
3 A. Emir or the guy, he run this, his name was Mustafa Shalabi
4 in Farouq Mosque in Brooklyn.
5 Q. Why don't we stop there. You mentioned the word emir,
6 E-M-I-R. Can you explain to us what an emir is?
7 A. Emir is the guy who runs the business and the guy who tell
8 you about jihad and about traveling, about when you bring the
9 money with you to him and he give it to jihad for Afghani
10 people. ”

“ Like if 20 miles an hour,
17 that means 200 meters in front of the tank.
18 Q. Can you tell us how you were trained to shoot an RPG at a
19 helicopter?
20 A. It's same thing, but because helicopter goes faster than
21 tank, if the helicopter go 200 miles an hour, that means you
22 need 2,000 meter in front of the helicopter.
23 Q. And later on when you were in Afghanistan, did you ever
24 actually shoot an RPG at a helicopter? ”

“ Can you tell us who
7 "them" was?
8 A. The people who want to establish a group, I work with them
9 in Afghanistan.
10 Q. Can you tell us who those people were that wished to
11 establish the group?
12 A. Abu Ayoub al Iraqi and Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri.
13 Q. Will you stop there. We'll put that on the screen.
14 Why don't we continue and give us the name and we'll
15 discuss each name.
16 A. Abu Faraj al Yemeni.
17 Q. Is it fair to say a person has the name "al Yemeni," they
18 are of the background that comes from Yemen? ”

“ Overruled.
2 A. He tell me -- I tell him, What bikes? We don't need
3 bikes. Why we buy bikes from there? And, We don't need in
4 Sudan. And he say for business and it's good to make money
5 and it's cheap over there, if we buy a lot, we make money from
6 that.
7 Q. Did you say anything else when he told you that answer?
8 A. I tell him I'm the third one -- I'm the third person sign
9 the contract in al Qaeda and you should tell me what going on
10 over there, why you hide from me something, because I know in
11 Chechnya over there we try to help Chechnan people. ”

“ I have conversation with Abu Ubaidah al
23 Banshiri about that.
24 Q. If I could ask the witness just to describe the
25 conversation, but do not describe any particular instances.
278
1 When you spoke to Abu Ubaidah --
2 A. He say a lot of people come to Sudan, from other group
3 come to Sudan, and we just want to make sure there is no one
4 come to spy or take information from what we doing and give it
5 to another government.
6 Q. Without telling us the names of specific examples, did
7 there come a time in al Qaeda when people were determined to
8 be informants? ”

“ At that time I was in Farook camp in Khost.
16 Q. Can you tell us what happened at the meeting you attended
17 in the Farook camp in Khost, Afghanistan?
18 A. He came with -- Abu Ayoub al Iraqi and his brother Yasin,
19 they came to the camp and they got meeting about we going to
20 make group training people and we don't want to stop after
21 Russia left Afghanistan. ”

“ Was there anything different
18 about the Egyptian Jihad group within al Qaeda as compared to
19 the rest of the group?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was that?
22 A. Because jihad group, the first people start the al Qaeda,
23 and also most of our training, our people trained the military
24 stuff from jihad group members. ”

“ And they talk about the government change in
13 Sudan and the Islamic Front, the Islamic National Front runs
14 the government over there, and they very good, and they want
15 to make relationship with al Qaeda, if we move over there it's
16 better because it's near Arab world. Afghanistan is too far.
17 Q. When the topic of relocating from Afghanistan and Pakistan
18 to the Sudan came up, did any al Qaeda members indicate an
19 objection, that they did not want to go to the Sudan? ”

“ If he's a good person, he go to paradise
23 and if he's a bad person, he go to hell.
24 Q. What did Abu Hajer say about that in the context of
25 Somalia?
270
1 A. He say they talk over there. If they make attack because
2 American people is everywhere in Somalia and Mogadishu City,
3 and he says it is no guarantee if we fight we not going to
4 injure innocent people. ”

“ Yes, identify who those people were.
7 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
8 Q. If you can identify what you recall that Usama Bin Laden
9 told you about jihad after the prayer during that meeting.
10 A. He talk about the Soviet Union army come to Afghanistan
11 and kill people and we have to help them, we have to make
12 jihad out of them and you have to be patient, you have to
13 follow the rule of the emir.
14 Q. And do you recall anything in particular that Abu Hajer al
15 Iraqi said that day during the meeting after the prayer? ”

“ Abdullah Mohamed Yusef.
11 Q. Was he actually a medical doctor?
12 A. He is animal doctor.
13 Q. A doctor for animals?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What did you do with him with regard to the Qatar
16 charitable organization?
17 A. He helped the jihad Eritrea group, and also he give
18 $20,000 for one of the attack outside of Sudan.
19 Q. When you were with al Qaeda in the Sudan, did you meet any
20 people from the islands off of Africa? ”

“ Just tell us that first.
2 A. That's in the big guesthouse in Riyadh city in Khartoum.
3 Q. Who spoke?
4 A. I remember Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri spoke, and Abu Talha al
5 Sudani, and Abu Abdallah Bin Laden.
6 Q. When you say Abu Abdallah Bin Laden, is that one person or
7 two?
8 A. It's one person.
9 Q. What you tell us, first focusing on Abu Ubaidah Al
10 Banshiri, what did he tell you about what al Qaeda wished to
11 do regarding Somalia?
12 A. He say we want to try hard to fight them and recruit them
13 to make war. ”

“ Did there come a time when this practice changed?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Why did it change?
19 A. Because in the office some people, they are not al Qaeda
20 membership but they are from Islamic National front and they
21 don't have two salary, and also they complain about why you do
22 more extra help to some people, not to other people. ”

“ What he understood it to be, this
178
1 witness's understanding of that term.
2 BY MR. FITZGERALD:
3 Q. Can you explain your understanding of what Jihad Fardh al
4 Ein is?
5 A. Jihad Fardh al Ein mean when the enemy come to Muslim war
6 or Muslim country and the people live in that country, they
7 cannot push the enemy back and they ask for other brother or
8 other Muslim to come and join them. That means any Muslim in
9 the war, he should go over there and push the enemy out of the
10 country. ”

“ What was their agenda?
5 A. They part of the al Qaeda group, and also they try to
6 change the government in Eritrea.
7 Q. Did you ever bring any money to the Eritrea jihad group?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where did you bring the money to?
10 A. To Sheik Arafa. He is emir of the jamaat.
11 Q. Does "jamaat" mean group?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Does "emir" mean leader?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What was Sheikh Arafa -- where was he located when you
16 brought him the money?
17 A. At that time they got guesthouse in Riyadh City, in
18 Khartoum. ”

“ We have to cut the head and stop them, what they doing
21 now in Horn of Africa.
22 Q. Do you recall how many people, approximately, were present
23 for this meeting where Bin Laden stated this?
24 A. It's a lot of people. It could be more than 30 or 40.
25 Q. You also mentioned that you had a conversation with this
282
1 with Abu Talha al Sudani.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell us when you had this conversation and where.
4 A. That's end of '93, and he tell me he's ready, he going to
5 go to Somalia with other people, and he mentioned few names
6 for me. ”

“ We go up the hill and down the hill.
13 MR. SCHMIDT: They shouldn't have gone up the hill in
14 the first place. That is opposite of what he has been told is
15 sheer speculation. That should not have been elicited. ”

“ Abdel Moez Ayman al Zawahiri.
6 Q. Again, is that one person?
7 A. It's one person.
8 Q. Were there any groups within al Qaeda from the country of
9 Syria?
10 A. Yes, Jamaat e Jihal al Suri.
11 Q. Do you know who the leader of Jamaat e Jihal al Suri was?
12 A. Abu Musab al Suri.
13 Q. Do you recall what color hair Abu Musab al Suri had?
14 A. He got yellow hair.
15 Q. Was that unusual within the group?
16 A. No, but he is from Syria, and he looked like Germany
17 people. ”

“ I don't know exactly how late we will sit
16 tomorrow. I know it will not be a full day.
17 Have a good evening. Please remember what I said
18 about not reading or listening to anything about the case.
19 (Jury excused)
20 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, among the last questions
21 answered by this witness was his speculation that the weapons
22 were going to Saudi Arabia to be used against Americans,
23 notwithstanding that he was told that it was going to Yemen. ”

“ We have
16 committee for military purpose.
17 Q. Could we talk about the committee for the military purpose
18 for a moment. What did that committee do?
19 A. They only focus about military stuff, like training,
20 helping people for do something about military, buy weapons.
21 Q. Can you tell us who some of the members of the military
22 committee of al Qaeda were.
23 A. Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri --
24 MR. SCHMIDT: Objection, your Honor.
25 THE COURT: How does he know?
208
1 Q. During your time with al Qaeda, did you do any work with
2 the military committee? ”

“ Abdallah Izzeldine.
8 Q. Why don't we spell that. Dr. Abdallah, A-B-D-A-L-L-A-H,
9 Izzeldine, I-Z-Z-E-L-D-I-N-E.
10 A. And somebody, he give me the nickname for somebody, but I
11 don't remember now the nickname from Lebanon.
12 Q. What happened? Did you go to Budapest?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. What happened when you went to Budapest?
15 A. When I went over there, the immigration officer in the
16 airport, they tell me you don't have visa and because I got
17 $7,000 and he tell me, What you want to do? ”

“ And we went back to the airport and he say we try to
8 got tickets from Gulf Airways for you and your wife.
9 Q. And did you and your wife then fly from Kenya to Pakistan?
10 A. Yes. I remember we -- like I think 15 hours maybe we wait
11 to airport until we got the flight.
12 Q. How long total do you think you spent in Kenya?
13 A. Around 20, 20 hours, maybe.
14 Q. Did they ever tell you what it was that you were supposed
15 to do in Kenya if you had stayed? ”

“ And it's lecture by Bin Laden and
13 other membership about jihad and our agenda.
14 Q. And was there any military activity in the Soba farm area?
15 A. We got refreshed training.
16 Q. And what kind of refreshed training?
17 A. For the people, they have training over from before, and
18 if they want to just refresh some of weapons, they can do
19 that, but without use or explosives. ”

“ Crate, C-R-A-T-E, with weapons in
2 it.
3 Q. How many crates or big boxes were there?
4 A. I remember four.
5 Q. Where were they?
6 A. They are in hangar in Soba farm.
7 Q. Can you describe what the hangar looks like.
8 A. It could be four times like this place.
9 Q. Is it a place like an airplane hanger, where airplanes are
10 kept in the airport?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. What happened to these four large boxes?
13 A. I remember I went with him and other guy, his name Abu Ali
14 Sudani, and Abu Ali, he work with delegation office. ”

“ He is
15 Islamic National Front membership and also he is intelligence
16 officer in the government, and also sometimes he is one of the
17 security for our group.
18 Q. So this Abu Ali was part of the National Islamic Front,
19 the intelligence office in the Sudan, and helped with security
20 with the group?
21 A. In delegation office.
22 Q. What happened then?
23 A. We went to Port Sudan, and we leave the truck outside the
24 city, and we went to Palace Hotel. ”

“ OK.
9 THE COURT: I know it is hard. Slow.
10 THE WITNESS: OK.
11 MR. FITZGERALD: If you could also move your chair up
12 a bit and lean forward, it makes a big difference how close
13 you are to the microphone.
14 THE WITNESS: OK.
15 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, at this point the
16 government would like to display some exhibits on the screens
17 for identification purposes only, which I believe means that
18 for the moment nothing will be displayed to the public or to
19 the jury. The first exhibit we would like to display is
20 Government's Exhibit 100. ”

“ And also we
20 bought farms for the training and refresh training.
21 Q. What do you mean by refresh training?
22 A. Because al Qaeda think when we were Sudan, we focus on the
23 people that got training already. If they need any operation
24 or anything for the military purpose, the people got trained
25 already, they just give them refresh in these farms. ”