House of Lords

“ Did you visit any other Part of the Island except the District of Hokianga and the Bay of Islands?
No. You state that the Natives were willing to give or sell Land to Europeans who came amongst them; do you think that was for the Purpose of obtaining Instruction in European Arts?
I do think so. They are very fond of having Europeans amongst them; they think they are very useful to them; they bring Trade, and they obtain their Blankets by that Means, and various other Things they require. ”

“ He went to Hokianga, to get Possession of Land which belonged to him by Inheritance, possessed by another Tribe, and he told a great many Persons he had a Title to Wangaroa, and when he was strong enough he went and took Possession of it. If any other Chief had sold that Land to a European, Shungi would have considered himself entitled to the Property which belonged to him?
Yes. Therefore without his Consent it would not have been a good Transaction?
Just so. I know that they have great Difficulties in getting all the Persons who have a Claim to act together. ”

“ A Person who came in the Ship with us had been to Kiapara; he told me it was a magnificent Country; that the River was navigable for One hundred Miles, and one of the Missionaries has a Purchase there, Mr. Baker of Manahia. When you spoke of the Propriety of making a Reserve of Land for the Natives, are you aware whether the Island affords Land enough to make that Reserve, and still to afford Land for Occupation by a good many Europeans?
Yes, certainly. The Population, I have understood, at Kiapara is very trifling; for One hundred Miles there are not above One hundred People ”

“ If the Protections for Property were greater there would be much greater Encouragement to Persons to go out and purchase Land. Would not such Authority be beneficial both to the Natives and to the European Settlers?
I think it would. Do many of those Persons who take refuge in New Zealand from New South Wales intermarry with the Natives? ”

“ They cultivate Potatoes very well; the Patches are very neatly kept, and they are very particular in not passing across the Sweet Potato Grounds. They could have an Abundance of Food; the Country is rich, and extremely well watered, much more so than New South Wales. They could irrigate in New Zealand if there was a Scarcity of Rain, but in New South Wales they would not have Water sufficient to do it. How is the Climate?
It is a beautiful Climate; it is never so hot as New South Wales, nor is it so cold ”

“ I think One of his Friends would take him in; they are very kind and charitable to one another. That was the Case in the Bay of Islands: Parties have come and sat themselves down at Pomarree's Farm, and he allowed it. If Pomarree were to sell his Property the same Process must be gone through?
Yes; they would have recourse to that. There is a great deal of Land of no Use to them which would be useful to Europeans, which would produce Wheat, but which they can never get to produce any thing. ”

“ Not all Foreign Governments, but the British Government; that they would be very happy to give up what little Authority they possess, for they possess very little; they would be very glad to give it up to the British Government. They would not know what they were doing, but they would take for granted that they were safe in trusting to honourable People. They know the higher Classes of English People, and they take the Character of the English from them more than they would from the Convicts who go there. When they do sell a Portion of Land they part with the sovereign Title over it ”

“ Yes; but I do not think, according to their own native Laws, they have a Right to do that; for instance, suppose a Man sold his Land, and after his Death his Son was strong enough, he would go and take that Land again; that is their Law. A very little Title would do for them, if they are strong enough. Are they ever in the habit of parting with their Land to one another? ”

“ By going away Do you think that the Missionaries have been of great Service in New Zealand?
Of very great Service; immense Service. I look upon the Northern Part of the Island as a Christian People. There are Individuals who are not Christians, but they generally are Christians. They observe the Sunday very strictly. The Population in the Bay of Islands, as far as Europeans are concerned, are Outcasts of Society, the Majority of them, are they not? ”

“ They are exceedingly fond of reading; they never go away without their Book in their Blankets. It did not appear to be done for Effect, but as if it was their common Habit. They had no Expectation of getting any thing from you? ”

“ There is a very small Quantity uncultivated, considering the Population. It is all in Potatoes. A great Quantity of Potatoes may be grown on a small Space. They do not grow Wheat; that is too much Trouble. They would grow it if they could cook it as easily as Potatoes, but they hate the Trouble of grinding. During your Stay had you any Opportunity of observing any Instances in which Natives worked as hired Slaves?
They worked for the Missionaries, but they had a good deal of Trouble with them. ”

“ A good many of them are permanent Settlers, but not respectable Settlers; several are Persons who are respectable, and who have permanent Establishments for the Supply of Ships; but there are a Parcel of Fellows who keep Grog Shops and Beer Shops, who are Runaways from Ships. Upon whose Property have those Persons established their Domicile?
Most likely those Men purchase small Pieces of Land from the Chiefs for the Purpose of putting up their Houses. One of the Missionaries has got a Section in Kororarika which he purchased at a Sale. ”

“ Busby had any Authority by Law to remove Persons, do you think that would tend to improve the Character of Foreigners settling there?
I do not know what Authority could be given to him, unless it was well supported by Constables and Troops; for there are so many Ways for those Men to escape. They might stir up the Natives to assist them in opposing Mr.Busby. He has always been well inclined to settle their Disputes, if they would apply to him ”

“ The Tide runs very strong; if there was not such a Bar it would be a very good River; when inside they can go up with perfect Safety. There is not a very large Population of Whites at Hokianga, is there? ”

“ Supposing there was such a Quarrel, do you think the Natives would be more likely to side with the Missionaries, or with them?
Certainly. They are not wanting in Sensibility; they are sensible Fellows. They do not respect those People at all ”