House of Lords

“ What is the Proportion of Population of Foreigners, Europeans, and Subjects of England in New Zealand?
I do not know; we hardly knew how to distinguish. Are there Frenchmen and Americans?
There are very few Frenchmen; there are some few North Americans, but we do not distinguish between the North Americans and the English; there are very few Frenchmen; there is a French Doctor in the Bay of Islands. Have they no Settlement of their own, apart from the English?
I am not aware of any. The Natives make no Distinction between them? ”

“ I am certain that if the Settlers in South America had known it, they might have got Cargoes of Slaves there, they are so fond of Trade, and so fond of arming themselves with Power to fight one against another, that they frequently would sell their Slaves for Muskets. Is the Population sufficiently numerous to afford any permanent Supply of Slaves?
I should say that the Population is immense; they appeared very prolific. Did you ever hear that any great Depopulation of the Natives had been going on during the last few Years? ”

“ You state that you think there must, sooner or later, be a regular Government; do you mean that the British Authority should be regularly established there, to the Exclusion of the native Authority?
I do. They will be treated of course as free Subjects, of equal Consequence in the Government as the Europeans were, I should think; but there must be some regular Government; they will never be able to govern themselves. You think that the Chiefs should be divested of their present Authority? ”

“ Has it been the Practice of all the Missionaries there to purchase Land?
Not all; only those having large Families. Do you think that an Establishment under the Protection of this Country, a Colony in New Zealand, would be advisable?
Not upon the Plan of the Colony at Sidney; not to send Convicts. On the Principle of free Emigration?
If Emigrants of Respectability and pious Persons could be induced to go there their Labours would be as productive of Good as the Missionaries. You must get respectable People, and respectable People alone, to go out? ”

“ Then again they would say, “The Things you give us are nothing like the Value of the Land; that will last for ever; but what will become of your Blankets? They will become sick or dead by-and-by. What becomes of your Tomahawks? They will all be sick or dead. Glass and Iron are brittle; you are going to steal our Land from us.” (They are fond of joking.) “Your Payment must be good to us.” ”

“ I had not; but I have had Lands offered to me several Times. A Chief in the Cowa Cowa told me if I would remain he would give me a Piece of Land to build a House, and would not require any Payment for it, fancying that my teaching him various useful Things would remunerate him. Had you an Opportunity of judging whether they understood, as between themselves, the Rights of Property?
Oh yes, thoroughly; they keep any Engagement with a European perfectly sacred and binding. ”

“ Suppose any Question to arise of Difference between a Settler and the Natives, how would that be settled?
The Settler would have no Power; he would be obliged to succumb to the Desire of the Natives; he possesses no Power. The Power he possesses now is less than the Power which the New Zealander possesses?
Certainly; the White Man possesses no Power at all, for if the New Zealanders chose they could annihilate the whole of the Europeans in One Day. They are People who have great Courage. Do the Chiefs exercise any sovereign Authority in the Administration of Justice, in their Fashion? ”

“ Do the Natives of that Part of the Island live by Agriculture, or by Hunting and Fishing?
They do not hunt at all; there are very few Quadrupeds in the Country, the wild Dog is the largest; but they fish a good deal, the Coast abounding with a great Variety of Fish; and they cultivate the common and the Sweet Potato, but they do not cultivate nearly sufficient for their Wants; at the same Time for a savage People there is a good deal of Cultivation going on. How do they procure sufficient for their Wants? ”

“ These are the Class of Men who are settled at New Zealand and the South Sea Islands. The Men with whom you had the Conversation you have referred to with respect to a larger Number of Europeans settling there, were only in the Situation of private Sailors?
Only private Sailors. Had they been Slaves or free Men?
They had been Slaves. From the Inquiries I have made, I have ascertained that though a Man who is captured is a Slave his Children are not Slaves. Is it from good Authority you know that if a Man is captured in War he is a Slave, but his Children are not Slaves? ”

“ A Number of People come in one Place, some very great Orator, some one who can speak very well, stands up, and proposes some one to be Chief. Do they ever disagree about it, and is that ever the Cause of War? ”

“ No, not so much as they used to do, in consequence of the Instructions of the Missionaries. When they go to War they consider that they are going on a profitable Speculation to get more Slaves?
It is chiefly to revenge some Injury; if they receive an Injury, however humble the Individual, the whole Tribe must revenge it. Do the Tribes mix much together?
Yes; they pass from one to another. They entertain each other very hospitably. Do you know the Amount of Land in that Country now the Property of Europeans? ”

“ Supposing the British Resident to be armed with more Power, and other Things to remain the same, do you conceive it likely that Europeans would continue to make Purchases of Land, and that they would increase? ”

“ I consider there were 500 Convicts and runaway Sailors on the Seacoast; not in the Interior. In what Sort of Way do they live?
They lead a most reckless Life, by keeping Grog Shops, selling spirituous Liquors, both to Europeans and Natives; living with the Native Females in a most discreditable Way, so that the Natives have told me, in their own Language, to teach my own Countrymen first before I taught them. They have called us a Nation of Drunkards, or mad with Drink; the Form of the Word imports Madness. This arose from their seeing a Majority of Europeans of that Stamp in New Zealand. ”

“ If I go to New Zealand I put off English Clothes, because they will be soon worn out, and I cannot get others; but if I am with English People I wear English Clothes. Do you think the other New Zealand People would do so too?
I think so; that they would like them. Do you think if a Captain told a New Zealander he would give him Powder or Blankets to bring back a runaway Sailor he would do it?
If a Man were to run away, if a Captain came and offered Powder, or Musket, or a Blanket, the Chief would go and bring the Man back again for it. Are there not a great many Whites where you live? ”

“ We have every Reason to fear they will; the Whaling Vessels are so well suited for that Purpose, to be converted into piratical Vessels; the Nature of the Crews likewise, from their disorderly and unmanageable Description; they are almost always in a State of Mutiny when they go into Harbour. What Temptation will any one have to convert a Whaler into a piratical Vessel there?
The great Chance they would have of capturing Vessels from and to New South Wales. The great Chance would be of capturing Vessels at Sea; but not of plundering the Inhabitants of New Zealand? ”

“ I think most of the Settlers who have gone there lately have been Traders; I do not think they have gone as Agriculturists. You do not think the Acquisition of Land goes on in the same Proportion as the Facilities?
No, I think not. You state that the Character of the Natives of the Southern Islands was different from that of the Natives in the Northern; that they are less intelligent?
I think they are; but perhaps that may arise from their Non-intercourse with Europeans. Do you think they would be less capable of understanding the Nature of any Bargain they made for the Sale of their Lands? ”

“ But it is invariably the Case that all the Ships there, speaking generally, have Women on board in great Numbers. The Missionaries take very little Pains with that Class of Persons?
Not the slightest; they do not attempt it. They have every possible Ridicule cast upon them by those People; they have abandoned every Attempt to improve them, and merely act with the Natives. They have given up arguing with the Masters of Vessels, finding it entirely fruitless. In what Language is the Communication carried on between the Missionaries and the Natives? ”

“ As to the Proprietors of Land; are there any Europeans who are Proprietors of Land except the Missionaries?
Yes, some. Are there many?
No, not many that I am acquainted with; but the major Part of my Time has been spent in the Interior. Are there any other Descriptions of Europeans except Missionaries, Traders, and Runaways, and their Families?
No. Have you known any Instances of Natives being employed by Europeans to guard their Houses?
We consider the Natives employed round the Missionary Stations to be a Protection. You were in New Zealand in the Autumn of 1835? ”

“ I believe it would be the Means of breeding Discontents between the Natives and Europeans; they would consider that it was not right that Europeans should be employed in preference to them; but if they were included you might employ as many Europeans as you pleased.
Is it not a native Feeling, in selling their Land, that they shall get Employment from the European?
It is that they will become Gentlemen, to use their own Word, in selling it and in working it; that is the Term many of the young Chiefs have used to me. Can you speak too strongly of the State of Society in the Bay of Islands? ”

“ A Person who came in the Ship with us had been to Kiapara; he told me it was a magnificent Country; that the River was navigable for One hundred Miles, and one of the Missionaries has a Purchase there, Mr. Baker of Manahia. When you spoke of the Propriety of making a Reserve of Land for the Natives, are you aware whether the Island affords Land enough to make that Reserve, and still to afford Land for Occupation by a good many Europeans?
Yes, certainly. The Population, I have understood, at Kiapara is very trifling; for One hundred Miles there are not above One hundred People ”

“ Giving up the Pig will not renew former Amity; there must be War. If a Man happen to put his Pipe at the Top of an old Rush House which no Person would live in, War ensues; and Enmities arise from the most trifling Things possible. They are Children on that Subject. Suppose Civilization to eradicate those Superstitions, do you not think the Tribes might live in Amity?
My Opinion is, they will be annihilated before that is done; the only Method I can think of, is Europeans giving them Employment, and keeping them apart. Would they not remember their old Feuds then? ”

“ The English frequently will purchase Land for their Convenience, and endeavour to have the Forest of Cowrie within the Trust. Do you know whether the Natives generally seek out the Settlements of Europeans, and establish themselves near the Whites?
No; I have not known any Instance of that; but the Whites generally seek out the Natives, and place themselves near them, in order to have promiscuous Intercourse with the Women; and they live in their Houses, and not in those built by themselves. Do you refer to those who have bought Land?
Those Persons build Houses upon their own Land. ”

“ Does Wheat in New South Wales bear generally a high Price?
A very high Price. I furnished myself Part of a Contract for the Government, 20,000 Bushels, in 1836, at the Time that Starvation stared us in the Face. I undertook the Contract. I imported it from Calcutta. The Country has never been able to produce sufficient Wheat to supply the Inhabitants, and it never will. It is a very fine Country, but it is quite a pastoral one. I have always compared New Zealand, and still do so, to be just as Great Britain is to the rest of Europe, –the great Country of that Part of the World. ”

“ When Men came with Irons on their Legs to New Zealand did the New Zealand People understand what that was for?
They know they were bad Men. There are Slaves whom you call Cookees there, are there not?
Yes; I have a Cookee. A Cookee's Child is not a Cookee?
No. I have a Cookee; if he marries a Gentlewoman the Child is a Gentleman, and no Cookee. Cookees are Prisoners of War?
Yes. Are there many Cookees belonging to your Tribe?
Yes. My Tribe is not a very large Tribe, but many Cookees; they have been in many Countries. Your Tribe have many War Canoes? ”

“ With respect to the Sale of Land, what is necessary to give a legal Title; is it the Consent of the Chief only?
The Chief, I believe. The People have no Power upon the Land. Do you know what constitutes the Law?
I do not; there are a great Number of Proprietors. You state that you have seen a Deed; of what Nature was that?
This Deed was signed by the Natives before the Deed was written; it was signed on blank Paper. It is stated that in Purchases made by Europeans there have been a great many contending Claims; that many Europeans have laid Claim to the same Land? ”

“ Do you think that if the Natives hereafter should find that was a very small Sum for the Purchase of that Land, they would be satisfied?
I have no Reason to believe but that they would be perfectly satisfied; they seem surprised to think that they should have so large a Payment. ”

“ How would Colonization prevent Wars between the Natives?
By employing their Minds and their Bodies; by Europeans settling between them; by Europeans taking up the Slaves as Farm Servants. The Slaves of New Zealand are very impertinent; they are given to Invention and Lies, and those are Things which cause more Wars between the Natives than any thing else. The Chiefs ought to have an Authority. ”

“ Where you find a Tribe at all under the Influence of Christianity, do you find that it is a divided Worship, or that they have thrown away their Idols?
That they have entirely thrown away their Idols; and some have built Churches of their own Accord. The Church at Paihia is Three Times the Size of this Room; I have seen that quite full; and I have seen Canoes going on the Sunday Morning with Natives to various Villages around; the Canoe had perhaps Five or Six Natives going together ”

“ I dare say they have had Europeans going down and giving it them. They have certain Customs among them in which some of the Traders assist them. If a Ship goes down there they take their Women Slaves on board; they, the Europeans, take them for the Advantage of the Ship; they are considered to protect the Ship; every Man down to the Captain has his One, Two, or Three Women.
You do not believe that the Depopulation among the Natives goes on so rapidly that within the last Thirty Years whole Districts have become almost depopulated? ”

“ You are to be understood to say the Land descends from the Father, and is divided among his Children?
Yes; the Right in the Land is hereditary; the Child knows that before an English Child could walk. Does he know that it is hereditary, to be divided among him and all his Brothers? ”

“ No, not on the Part of a White; but if a Slave has promiscuous Intercourse with the Chief's Wives it is considered a great Offence, and he is punished with Death. Do you think the Slaves in the Hands of Europeans are treated as well as with the Natives?
They are better treated generally, setting aside the Instruction; but they will not stay with any Person who will not instruct them; they run away. They are better treated in other respects?
Yes. Do they purchase Slaves with the Property? ”

“ I see in 1837, since I have been home, my Firm in Sydney, being the Agent for Parties who are cultivating in Poverty Bay large Quantities of Maize, Wheat, and Potatoes, trading for Flax, Pork, Hogs Lard, Whalebone, Oil, and every thing the Country abounds in; a Variety of Products which are very valuable and useful. Does it appear to you that the Soil is adapted for the Cultivation of Wheat?
Yes; for the finest Wheat in the World. New South Wales is not a Wheat Country; but I have seen very large plump Grain from New Zealand. New Zealand is not subject to Droughts. ”