Louis Fischer

“ I do not wish Japan to win the war. I do not want the Axis to win. But I am sure that Britain cannot win unless the Indian people be come free. Britain is weaker and Britain is morally indefensible while she rules India. I do not wish to humiliate England.”
“But if India is to be used as a military base by the United Nations, many other things are involved. Armies do not exist in a vacuum. For in stance, the United Nations would need good organization on the railroads.” ”

“ I talked to leading Indians, but I immediately realized that the biggest thing in India was Gandhi, and that if you didn’t know Gandhi, and that if you didn't understand Gandhi, you didnt' understand the political situation, you didn't understand India, and that you didn’t understand the future of India. ”

“ The general Indian feeling about Gandhi is that he has devoted his life to the people. He lives like the people and shares their primitive hardships and poverty. He has no money and no property. He wants only one thing—a free India. And since so many millions of Indians want the same thing, Gandhi has become the symbol of a nation’s yearning.
Everywhere in India, whenever an Indian criticized the British I would insist that he explain to me why he was anti-British. I said to an Indian Moslem who is a high civil servant in the British government, “Why are so many Indians anti-British?” ”

“ I leaned against one of the bamboo supports of the house to rest, but Gandhi carried on full of pep. “In actual life,” he insisted, “ it is impossible to separate us into two nations. We are not two nations. Every Moslem will have a Hindu name if he goes back far enough in his family history. Every Moslem is merely a Hindu who has accepted Islam. That does not create nationality. If some influential Christian divine converted us all to Christianity, we should not become one nation if we really were two nations, and in the same manner the two religions of India do not make two nationalities. ”

“ The thirty-odd people in the room, all dressed in white and squatting on the brown floor, were receiving their food and not eating it. Diners passed food to one another with their hands. A gong sounded, and a tall, healthy looking man in white shorts stopped waiting on the trays and closed his eyes, leaving only a white slit open—it made him look blind—and started a high-pitched chant in which all the others, including Gandhi, joined. ”

“ Doesn’t India really consider people of that character more valuable than men of wealth?
Fischer: Yes, yes, they stand in awe before wealth and strength, but they have reverence for the weak and the poor: for those who renounce the material things. And I think that Gandhi’s hold on the Indian mind is because he renounced wealth, and what is more important, he renounced power. ”

“ I should hope that with the complete, final and honest withdrawal of the British power, the wise leaders will realize their responsibility, forget their differences for the moment and set up a provisional government out of the material left by the British power. ”

“ No, I suppose not, but there was something of Gandhi in Lincoln, and there’s something of Gandhi in Professor Albert Einstein, apart from his science where he has been a great success. The way to judge a man is by what he strives for—what he wants. If he wants to rebuild the world, of course he's not going to be a success in the material things, but he is going to become a great person ”

“ Nehru said that Hinduism has no fundamentalism and that no Hindu therefore can be punished or ex-communicated for being unorthodox. “You can even be a Hindu and an atheist,” he said. “As Gandhi said this morning, ‘You don’t cease being a Hindu because you do not believe in caste or in untouchability.’ In like manner, you can be a religious Hindu even if you hang Christ’s picture on your wall and believe in his precepts.” ”

“ Ten years ago I might not have agreed, but after my experiences in Russia and elsewhere I feel that the greatest danger the world faces is the emergence of the all-powerful state which makes individual freedom impossible. ”

“ Gandhi asserted, “that in war time there must be civilian control of the military, even though the civilians are not as well trained in strategy as the military. If the British in Burma wish to destroy the golden pagoda because it is a beacon to Japanese airplanes, then I say you can not destroy it, because when you destroy it you destroy something in the Burmese soul. ”

“ I inquired.
“The organization is the Congress Party,” he answered. “But if it fails me, I have my own organization, myself. I am a man possessed by an idea. If such a man cannot get an organization, he becomes an organization.”
“Have you sufficient confidence in the present mood of the country? Will it follow you? This civil disobedience movement may involve heavy sacrifices for the people. ”

“ Gandhi said. “But America is the ally of the England which enslaves us. And I am not yet certain that the democracies will make a better world when they defeat the Fascists. They may become very much like the Fascists themselves.” ”

“ Gandhi has the conviction that he can, sitting in his hut at Sevagram, reading his correspondence, and listening to the Indians who visit him, sense the sentiment and hear the prayers of the Indian masses. He is persuaded that he knows what they want and is, therefore, entitled to act for them. Gandhi is immersed in India. ”

“ There is a danger that the democracies will defeat the Axis and become just as bad as Japan and Germany.”
“Of course there is a danger,” I broke in. “But many people said that England would go fascist if it went to war. Yet in fact England is more democratic now than she was before the war.”
“No,” he disagreed. “We see in India that this is not so.”
“At least in England,” I suggested.
“It cannot be true in England,” Gandhi insisted, “and not in the Empire. I cannot depend on your future goodness. I have labored for many decades for Indian national freedom. We cannot wait any longer. ”

“ Gandhi said. “Nothing along the lines of the Cripps offer. I want their complete and irrevocable withdrawal. I am essentially a man of compromise because I am never sure that I am right. But now it is the unbending future in me that is uppermost. There is no halfway house between withdrawal and non-withdrawal. It is, of course, no complete physical withdrawal that I ask. I shall insist, however, on the transfer of political power from the British to the Indian people.” ”

“ The mass of the people are resolved not to be ruled after the war by the sort of people who ruled them before the war and brought on this war. Cripps could become the expression and embodiment of this popular protest. His rise to office is therefore an encouraging phenomenon.”
“Yes,” Gandhi interpolated, “and a discouraging one too, for I wonder whether Cripps has the qualities of a great statesman. It is very discouraging to us that the man who was a friend of Jawaharlal’s and had been interested in India should have made himself the bearer of this mission.” ”

“ That is why I am saying I do not want British and American soldiers here. I do not want Japanese or German soldiers here. The Japanese broadcast every day that they do not intend to keep India—they only propose to help us win our freedom. I do not welcome their sympathy or help. I know they are not philanthropists. I want for India a respite from all foreign domination. I have become impatient. I cannot wait any longer. Our condition is worse than China’s or Persia’s. I may not be able to convince Congress. Men who have held office in Congress may not rise to the occasion. ”

“ A dictator can never admit he is wrong. Gandhi can; he often does.
Gandhi is very much of a Hindu. The Hindu religion is a tolerant and sponge-like religion. Hindus believe in one God. Some also believe in Christ. Some are atheists; they claim that Hinduism is a code of life independent of a deity. Some pray to idols. Some worship mountains and rivers and gods who were once men and women; they see no conflict between such opposites as monotheism and idolatry. “If the Niagara Falls were in India,” an Indian said to me, “they would be a god.” ”

“ I went on, “how real are the fears of the Moslem leaders? Perhaps they understand better than the Moslem masses that the Hindus desire to dominate. Can you say quite objectively that the Hindus have not tried to gain the upper hand?”
“Here and there,” Gandhi said, “individuals may entertain regrettable ideas. But I can say that the Congress movement and the Hindus in general have no desire to control. The provinces must enjoy broad autonomy. I myself am opposed to violence or domination and do not believe in powerful governments which oppress their citizens or other states. ”

“ Das, my neighbor, came and said that Gandhi was tired and would not walk this morning. Kurshed brought me a breakfast of tea with biscuits, butter, honey, and mangoes. I ate quickly while flies and ants competed with me. After breakfast I typed notes but interrupted when Dev and Aryanaikam, a huge dark Ceylonese who was a leading Congress educator, came to talk about Russia. I voiced the view that independence was not enough, and that after independence India’s real headaches would start. Kurshed repeated her statement of yesterday that she wanted a free India even if it were fascist. ”

“ I asked why, since there was no racial difference between Hindus and Moslems, there could be such a divergence of personal characteristics. “Is it food?” I asked. He attributed it to a different outlook on life. The Moslems have a real joie de vivre. It wasn’t food. In north India many Hindus eat meat. Moslems do not eat pork, but eat beef. “The Hindu,” he said, “is contemplative, has a good memory, is a good businessman. But if you want to have a good time and eat well and dance and swim,” he advised me, “find a Moslem.”
At lunch, Gandhi was in a very jolly mood. ”

“ He paused, and I thought he looked very disconsolate. “England,” he said with deliberation, “is sitting on an unexploded mine in India and it may explode any day. The hatred and resentment against Britain are so strong here that Britain can get no help for her war effort. Indians enlist in the British Army because they want to eat, but they have no feeling in their hearts which would make them wish to help England.” ”

“ Bose is a young man with a propensity for dramatic action, and were he to succumb in Germany to the lure of Fascism and return to India and make India free but Fascist, I think you would be worse off than under British rule.”
“There are powerful elements of Fascism in British rule,” Gandhi exclaimed, “and in India these are the elements which we see and feel every day. If the British wish to document their right to win the war and make the world better, they must purify themselves by surrendering power in India. ”

“ I want them to go now so I can help China and Russia. Today I am unable to pull my full weight in favor of them. It is my philanthropy that has made me present this proposal. For the time being, India disappears from my gaze. I never wanted independence for India’s sake alone. I never wished to play the role of frog-in-the-well.”
“You have not felt this way before, Mr. Gandhi,” I suggested.
“The whole idea,” he explained, “keeps blossoming out within me. The original idea of asking the British to go burst upon me suddenly. ”

“ Our first problem is to get rid of British rule. Then we will be free, without restraints from the out side, to do what India requires. The British have seen fit to allow us to have some factories and also to prohibit other factories. No! For me the paramount problem is the ending of British domination.”
This, obviously, was what he wanted to talk about; the vague future interested him less. “Well,” I asked, “how do you actually see your impending civil disobedience movement? What shape will it take?”
“In the villages,” Gandhi explained, “the peasants will stop paying taxes. ”

“ Gandhi said, “because they will have to live. They will go back to the bank, their own bank, and utilize it under their direction for purposes they think best. They may then build wind mills or produce electricity or whatever they like. A central government will evolve, but it will act according to the wishes of the people and will be broadbased on their will.”
“The state, I imagine,” I said, “will then build more industries and develop the country industrially.”
“You must visualize a central government without the British Army,” Gandhi said. ”

“ Your very friends, China and Russia, may appeal to you not to launch this civil disobedience movement.”
“Let them appeal to me. I may be dissuaded. But if I can get appeals to them in time, I may convert them. If you have access to men in authority here, tell them this. You are a fine listener. ”

“ Gandhi then talked at length and scarcely stop ping for breath—although we were walking at a fast pace and it was still hot—about what he called British atrocities in Bengal and elsewhere. He said he had received letters only today telling how villagers were being driven from their homes without notice and without compensation in order to make way for the construction of airdromes. “This,” he commented, “impedes the war effort, although it appears to be part of the war effort. I am more than ever convinced that Britain cannot win this war unless she leaves India.” ”

“ Gandhi continued, “could be swept away by a bomb from a Japanese plane, whereas if they were distributed among the seven hundred thousand shareholders, nobody could deprive them of their assets. There will then be voluntary cooperation between these seven hundred thousand units, voluntary cooperation—not cooperation induced by Nazi methods. Voluntary cooperation will produce real freedom and a new order vastly superior to the new order in Soviet Russia. Some say there is ruthlessness in Russia but that it is exercised for the lowest and the poorest and is good for that reason. ”

“ Both Nehru and Azad assured me that nobody in India wanted the Moslems to remain in an Indian union if they really wished to secede. “However,” Azad said, “I do not believe in divorce before marriage. If the Hindus and Moslems try to live together and fail, then there can be a separation. But a large number of Moslems believe in the unity of India and they do not wish to disrupt that unity before it is given a fair trial.”
At three o’clock in the afternoon Gandhi burst into the hostel. ”

“ Some men live longer because their works last longer, but I believe that faith in one’s immortality, if it is distinct from one’s acts, is really fear of death and an at tempt to find comfort in an illusion.” Gandhi thereupon reiterated his view with much passion and in fine-flowing English prose; he always spoke a rich, fluent English with a British university accent.
I said students had told me that the new generation in India was less inclined to make a distinction between high-caste Hindus and Untouchables, or between Hindus and Moslems, and that they were not much interested in religion. ”

“ That would mean making a present of India to Japan, and England would never consent to that, nor would the United States approve. If you demand that the British pack up and go bag and baggage, you are simply asking the impossible; you are barking up a tree. You do not mean, do you, that they must also with draw their armies?”
For at least two minutes Gandhi said nothing. The silence in the room was almost audible. “You are right,” he said at last. “No, Britain and America, and other countries too, can keep their armies here and use Indian territory as a base for military operations. ”

“ Cripps introduced this same principle in his offer; that is the second big flaw. There can be no unity in India, therefore, as long as the British are here.”
“Well,” I said, “you did not like the outlines of the post-war settlement proposed by Cripps. But was there nothing desirable in the interim or immediate provisions? Did you not think that, irrespective of the plan for the future, there might be some value in the immediate arrangements which would give your people experience in government and earn you the right to demand freedom after the war?” ”

“ Congress officers are elected by the members of Congress, and ministers who are members of Congress abide by the principles of Congress. Sir Samuel Hoare has told me a few things about the workings of democracy in Britain.”
“He seems to be your favorite British statesman,” I interjected. This provided much laughter.
“At least,” Gandhi said, “I always know where he stands. Parliamentary democracy is not immune to corruption, as you who remember Tammany Hall and the Mayor of Chicago should know. I do not think a free India will function like the other countries of the world. ”