National Conference on Workmen's Compensation for Industrial Accidents

“ Chairman, just as reasonable to assume and why is it in conflict with any theory of natural justice to say that if an employer seeks to employ a man in a hazardous trade or in any trade, he shall compensate him to a reasonable extent; he shall guarantee to him a limited compensation and that he shall guarantee him against the consequences of an injury while he is engaged in that employment? Will not the courts read into that bill practically that contract of guaranty? ”

“ Is there any substantial difference between saying [48] it in those words and saying that every occupation is dangerous, because I do not believe that we can conceive of any occupation that is not dangerous or in which no accidents occur. Even a school boy stubs his toe on the street. It is not in and of itself a dangerous occupation, but he accidentally gets hurt. Now, where an employment in and of itself would not be dangerous, but where through some unforeseen circumstance an accident should occur, would that fact of itself make an industry a hazardous industry? ”

“ I believe that if it cost an employer $20,000 to kill a man he would be careful. If it is expensive for an employer to kill men, he will protect them, but the great difficulty in this country is that it is not expensive to kill men. It is the judgment, I think, of nearly every one who has investigated this matter, that human life is entirely too cheap; it is not expensive enough for the employers who injure their workmen. ”

“ Is there any reason why, when we have tried to make that provision for the inevitable result of industry, we should refuse to punish those rare cases of misconduct which mean that men have grossly trifled with the safety of their employes? I am not quite clear that there is any good reason. I am confident that an examination of the British decisions, since they put the first compensation act upon the statute books in 1907, would show that there have been very few cases, indeed, in which the employers have been held liable, where they ought not to have been actually punished for misconduct. ”

“ If better laws or better wages attract better workmen, then there is a compensation to an employer even though his wage-scale be higher or his cost greater than prevails in a competitive industry in another State. The best workmen are attracted to those industries and to those localities where conditions of employment are most satisfactory, and I dare say that every employer will agree that the best workman is to him the cheapest workman even though his wages be higher.... ”

“ As to what is a dangerous employment, as to whether or not you should cover some or all, I have no doubt that there is not a man in this country, a farmer, a mechanic, a laboring man, a doctor, a lawyer or any other professional man, but what is perfectly willing to have and desires to have a fair compensation law if he can know just what it is going to cost him, and just what his insurance will cost him, in order to avoid the present uncertainties and evils that flow from existing conditions. ”

“ In conclusion, I believe I am expressing the sentiments of the trade-union people in the city of Chicago when I say that we are opposed to any law that will waive the right of action now in the hands of a workman. We think it should be as it is in Great Britain at the present time. Personally, I am in favor of going even further than that. I believe when a workman suffers an injury due to the carelessness of an employer or a superintendent, that that employer or superintendent should be sentenced to prison for that negligence. ”

“ The life of the employer is at stake in this matter. If we build up conditions so high that he will have to leave the State or abandon his property, he cannot afford to pay wages to the workingmen. We, on the other hand, have all we have to lose; we have not only our trade, but we have our lives at stake, and the public has no voice in it. Organized capital, through the Manufacturers' Association, the Mine Operators' Association, and so forth, has a voice. Organized labor has a voice, but if the public has any voice at all it does not amount to a great deal in the State of Illinois. ”

“ And when all is said and done, gentlemen, one of the principal purposes of this Conference should be to prevent accidents. Your compensation, quite apart from preventing accidents, is necessary, yet it is of a hundred times more importance that a life be saved than it is that some man or his dependents should receive $3000 or $4000 for his life. It is all very well to receive $1000 for the loss of an eye or the loss of an arm, but it is much better, not only for that man, but also for society, that the eye or the arm be not lost. ”

“ Gentlemen, is it not true that we have the best judgment of the great financial interests in this country to the effect that this interstate competition amounts to very little, and that that judgment is best evidenced by reason of the fact that nearly all of the big industries that are doing business both locally and throughout the United States are adopting a scheme that voluntarily places a greater burden upon their shoulders than the law has been providing? ”

“ If we pass a compensation law so that every injury is surely compensated, what resulted in Great Britain is what I should expect to find in this country if we do not weaken these defenses; that is, that after a compensation act is passed, the disposition of courts and juries will shift to the other side; namely, that instead of aiming to stretch the theory of employers' liability and negligence to the utmost limit in order to give verdict, they will tighten them by establishing new precedents until it will be nearly impossible to get a verdict for the negligence of the employer. ”

“ I do not believe there is a labor representative here, I do not believe there is a laborer in this country, who entirely understands the matter, who is mature in his judgment upon it and who has studied it and understands the whole situation, but who would be willing that you should repeal all of the statutory provisions now existing, repeal all of the common law, if you give him something which he knows is not a gold brick. ”

“ With respect to the theory that should be followed in this legislation, we must understand that both employer and employe must be willing to stand some restrictions. Neither has more interest in its remote consequences than has the State. We cannot keep up the old system and add a new without leaving all the uncertainties and adding the burdens of certainty. We would leave the burdens of cost, the weight of a large part of the injustice, a considerable amount of the delay and most of the prejudicial feelings that now prevail with respect to the worst accidents and their final determination. ”

“ I think the purpose of all this legislation should be first to do substantial justice to the workingmen, and I think the second consideration should be to take out of the courts all this long and expensive litigation, in order that the money that is not paid by employers, or whatever is paid by them, may be used for the relief of those who are suffering from industrial accidents. I do not believe, however, that the workmen should have the right to sue his employer, and, failing to win his suit, to go back and receive his compensation. ”

“ I do not know whether there will be any advantage in the discussion of the character of a bill that we should want to adopt or as to the measure that any group would desire. I hold no commission that gives me a right to represent the workingmen of the United States, notwithstanding that I am an officer of the American Federation of Labor. As a matter of fact, the American Federation of Labor, which is representative of practically all the organized workmen in the United States, has not itself decided formally upon the character of a compensation bill that they would favor. ”

“ I have never found in England a private company having any inspection whatsoever of dangerous industries. I visited many factories and went into every insurance company in London and asked them what they did to prevent accidents, and they were doing practically nothing. I went into the sawmills in Germany and in England and compared the safety devices side by side, and I want to tell you that where the manufacturers in Germany combine under the law as they are compelled to do, they deal with their men with a hundred times greater humanity than under the conditions in England. ”

“ Of course, it may be said that I am a structural iron worker, and interested in that craft which is a building trade, and am, therefore, more selfish about this matter. I feel, however, a great interest in securing better protection for workers in all industries. I know the dissatisfaction that is caused under present conditions; I know the women that are condemned to the washtub and the orphans to poverty, and, therefore, I am always willing to exercise my best efforts to secure better protection for those workers. ”

“ I believe that the industry should bear the expense. As it stands, it makes the workingmen, who are usually young or middle-aged men, from 20 to 45 years of age on an average, and who have a long expectancy, contribute the largest share. As to whether or not we could constitutionally deny the workingman his right of action against a negligent employer I seriously doubt if that could be done, for why should the rule be different if the injury is caused by the employer and it falls upon the workingman, than when it falls upon a stranger? ”

“ The reason why the employers cannot be forced, if it is done equally, is that it deprives them of their liberty secured by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Federal Constitution to contract with respect to their labor as they see fit upon the theory that the liberty of contract is a property right; but neither the right of property of the employe nor the employer stands above the general public good. ”

“ I quite agree with you that an investigation as to the costs and operation of the laws in Europe would be of advantage to us, but I quite well recognize that that is a slow process, and I think we cannot afford to wait for several years before we do something definite in this country. Now, I should like to say that I recognize very well how important it is to our industries that they be kept on a fairly competitive basis. I am not at all satisfied, however, that the establishment of a system of compensation, even in one of our states, would be a serious handicap to the employers of that state. ”

“ No man will believe that he will be injured in an accident. The moment a man starts in on the proposition of whether he himself is going to be injured, he becomes an unfit subject to ask for employment. He is not in a position to go to the employer and say, "You must guard that wheel," or "protect this machine." But if a situation is devised where one man can go to the other and say: "You are the employer and you must stand five-sixths of the cost of an accident, and we one-sixth, and you must protect these men; here is a man over here that will not live up to the rules, fire him. ”

“ If you wish to be conservative, and not cover all the industries that have some element of hazard, you have to decide the very difficult question where to draw the line. When I read over the list of employments singled out in the compulsory bill recommended by the New York Commission, I was very much puzzled by the obvious fact that certain obviously hazardous employments were excluded, until I was informed that the principle was that of the non-competitive industry. ”

“ Generally speaking, it is the rule that a party has no vested interests to a right of action at common law for a future injury. A tort action grows out of a breach of the duty which the State provides that one of its individuals owes to another, either by reason of the peculiar situation as between the parties, or by reason of a public burden which has a peculiar favor in it for the one who is injured. This direct liability the State has imposed by the implied adoption of the common law or by statute, both of which it has the power to repeal. ”

“ Therefore we ought to have some particular reason for putting the liability upon the employer, and that reason might well be some particular element of danger. By calling an employment dangerous, I think, we do not make it dangerous even if now and then accidents occur in it. I think there are certain elements of danger which we could all point out, and that there are some elements of danger which we could all agree upon as making an occupation extremely hazardous. ”

“ Again, when you introduce a compulsory insurance system, if his institution is not up to standard, he finds he is paying three times as big a rate of premium, perhaps, as another employer in the same business, and he does not wait for accidents to happen, but takes measures at once to prevent them, and so get a present and permanent benefit in a reduction of his rate. There has nothing been found yet which will cause so effective prevention of accidents as compulsory insurance ”

“ That is, if I should attempt to say that every man in this room was a "Tom fool," as a comparison between the men in this room, I have not said anything, but when you say every industry in which there is an accident (and there is an accident in every industry) is a partly dangerous industry, and by saying that attempt to legislate concerning it because it is dangerous, we have simply piled up a number of words which, when the courts get to the construction of the bill they must disregard entirely. ”

“ Dawson (New York) : Nearly every bill which has so far been framed has proceeded on the basis that it is necessary to limit the length of time for which the benefit is to be paid. That is to say, even though a workman has become totally and permanently disabled, the benefit is to be paid for three or four years, and then is to stop. This overcaution grows out of two things; one of them is that we are almost entirely thinking of this as a compensation scheme which the individual employer is going to pay for. ”

“ If we cannot see the benefits that come to us from following the European systems, we will have to work one out ourselves. But in my judgment and in the judgment of a great many others more competent to speak authoritatively upon the subject than I am, it would seem as though it was the height of folly for us to ignore the example of Germany and twenty-two Continental Governments which have followed the lead of Germany. ”